Stefan Forbes
The morning after the first presidential debate, on his way from New York to D.C., filmmaker Stefan Forbes got on the horn to talk about his new documentary Boogie Man: The Lee Atwater Story. The film is affecting, from interviews with 1988 Democratic standard-bearer Michael Dukakis puttering sadly about his lovely Brookline, Mass., home to footage of Atwater after his diagnosis with brain cancer, when medication turned him into a scary, moon-faced figure he was loath to let anyone see.
Democrats take it on faith that since even Atwater repented – after his diagnosis, he wrote letters to all the candidates he’d wronged in the GOP campaigns he ran – it is a given that the things he did were actually wrong. Tell it to Mary Matalin, seen here practically spitting with fury that her friend Atwater apologized. I don’t think Mary Matalin is a very nice person. –Rebecca Schoenkopf
L.A. CityBeat: Good morning! I think even sophisticated political types hear the name “Lee Atwater” and at most know about the Willie Horton ad. Could you give us a brief overview of the glory that was Lee Atwater?
Stefan Forbes: It was a fascinating story to me: How did this guitar-picking rascal from humble Southern roots grow up to be a kingmaker and a rock star? He put Reagan and Bush in power; he was a mentor to Karl Rove; and he taught W. everything he knew about campaigning. People don’t know that in his final days, he started a smear campaign against Bill Clinton that could have crippled his presidency. Lee saw the potential of Clinton – here was a guy you couldn’t smear as a liberal or an elitist. As a Southerner, he knew how to fight back against the Atwater playbook. People wondered if Atwater had lived, would Clinton have even made it to the White House?
Why Atwater now, 17 years after his death? Is it that Karl Rove’s already been explored, and this looks back at the founding of his style?
Lee Atwater was Karl Rove’s Karl Rove. He made him. Tucker Eskew – a key advisor to Sarah Palin right now – says in the film that Atwater was the first to say perception is reality. The truth really doesn’t matter, it’s how you spin it. He was a genius at convincing the media it’s the show that matters, the horse race. Rove took that into the White House and used it as their philosophy of governing, with disastrous results. They want to cut down forests, what do they call it? The Healthy Forests Act. It’s a belief that spin, emotional appeals, mockery, are the deciding factors in American politics. And resentment – that plays a key role!
What is it about the “elites” argument? Why would people resent having an intelligent leader? And what would Atwater do about Obama?
How can a millionaire with seven houses and 15 cars be a man of the people? Obama can out-point McCain in debates all he wants, but until he resonates emotionally ... I caution anyone to underestimate the Atwater playbook. You see “arugula” talked about the way Belgian endives were in 1988. They can make vegetables elitist!
It seems Karl Rove has passed the torch to his protege, Steve Schmidt, but maybe because their candidate is so flawed, their campaign is just falling apart.
Steve Schmidt has taken the Atwater playbook past where Atwater would have taken it. He was a master; he knew there could be a backlash.
It was so odd in your film, seeing people like Robert Novak – Robert Novak! – saying Atwater was peddling slanders against Dukakis, stories even he wouldn’t run. And Roger Stone – Roger Stone! – cautioning them that the Horton ad would follow them to their graves.
Well, they’re saying that 20 years later; they admit what everyone knew at the time. McCain’s lied about Obama’s tax plan so terribly, you’ve had this incredible spectacle of Rove, O’Reilly, and Fox News saying it’s gone too far. When the women on The View are the toughest interviewers out there, it’s really an indictment of the state of the media.
But Katie Couric took Sarah Palin to the woodshed!
Yes, because they’ve declared war on the media. Look what they did to Dukakis: They took a guy who’d lived the American Dream, and put him through this mockery. The Dukakis tank ad – all the text they ran over it [about weapons systems he supposedly was against] was a complete lie, and the media never checked it out. Now [the McCain campaign] has defined Obama the way they defined Dukakis – that achievements are elitist. Clinton understood the power of emotion over the power of the 10-point plan. You didn’t have to tell FDR how to connect with the common man – and he had a cigarette holder! Atwater showed you could take a fatally flawed candidate, in terrible times, and you could win. It’s not the candidate; it’s the playbook that does the work for you.
Was it fun interviewing [Reagan campaign manager] Ed Rollins? Did you have to coax it out of him, or did he start with his threat to Atwater – “If you ever do that again, I’ll fucking beat the living crap out of you” – right away?
Yeah, it was fun. He provides the emotional core of the film. The power of his intense relationship with Atwater ... it was the most intense relationship of his life, more than any of his wives. It leaps off the screen! It’s always a matter of creating a bond with an interview subject; you have to have that trust. I didn’t want to make another liberal film, preaching from the screen. It’s a Greek tragedy, the story of an American original. As a filmmaker, it’s so rare that you get a life that’s so dramatic, if you wrote it, people would laugh you out of the room. I wanted to make room for the story to tell itself.
Boogie Man: The Lee Atwater Story premieres Friday at Laemmle’s Sunset 5.
Published: 10/01/2008
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great interview!!!